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Post by campbeji on Dec 11, 2011 22:36:46 GMT -5
Yes the whole 'Organic' thing seems to be a bit hit and miss, it sometimes seems to be just an excuse for the shops to charge more. Being a bit cynical I stand in Tescos looking at their 'Organic' products thinking, Is this really Organically produced or is Mr T telling me porkies. If I am going to be buying Organic I will go to someone I trust, and the best place I know is here www.ballylagan.com/ I think its a great wee place, not the cheapest but at least the money is going directly to a local producer. Their steaks and mince are superb, well worth the little extra it costs, our kids can tell the difference when Janet uses the organic mince in her mince pies. They also have the most entertaining weekly newsletter I get, the highlight of my week Its not long or complicated or even that 'smart', but its honest and kinda makes me feel that bit closer to the country side, you should sign up. Can you tell I like this place? Anyway I agree that the 'Organic' food should have a simple straightforward certification system, although in reality that would probably cause more work for the farmer than its worth. As far as I know there are already lots of farmers that have stopped producing Organic food because of the poor returns. Jim
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Post by tomhill on Dec 12, 2011 12:57:43 GMT -5
I agree with you Jim. I am unsure about what I am really getting when I am in the shop. When there is money involved people get up to tricks. The proof of the pudding really is in the eating and no amount of certification or rustic packaging will convince me otherwise. The organic (I am really getting to hate that name) stuff tastes so good, it makes me wonder why the other stuff tastes so bad. Does anyone know by how much agri. output would fall if production changed from oil based farming to something like organic (sustainable) practice? Tom
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Post by joeryan1 on Dec 12, 2011 15:25:16 GMT -5
the farmers would get better returns on their organic produce if people would either buy directly from them or less indirectly from them. bypass the supermarkets for a start. not only that, but the stuff would be more affordable to the consumer too, so everyone wins except the market controlling middleman who is removed from the picture.
i dont like the marketing of organic. it would be better as a straight talking "no shit" label in my book, but i do agree with the principals of minimising the use of artificial fertiliser, using natural pest control where possible and where that doesn't work, limiting pesticides to the safer ones.
one of the things that's clearly wrong with the organic market is that people are happy to buy a bag or organic spuds flown in from israel or cyprus, when it would be better for everyone buying a rougher looking organic spud grown locally.
i am also in no doubt that some products are sold as organic when they're not. next time youre in lidl study the labels on the bananas inside the organic bag and compare these with the labels on the non-organic loose bananas. it's fairly clear what's going on. having said that, i don't think the abuse is widespread, and we could monitor it all a lot better if it were grown locally and knew the farm it was grown on.
lets start a "no shit" food programme. what would the tenets, aims and objectives be? how could a few locals get the ball a rolling?
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Post by campbeji on Dec 12, 2011 20:07:44 GMT -5
Hi JoeRyan1, I think you have it backwards, without wanting to be crude we don't need a 'no sh#t' campaign we need a 'Just sh#t' campaign, or to put it in more polite terms natual/organic fertiliser . Seriously though the only way the likes of you or me (without getting fulltime) can do anything about this sort of thing is to buy our products from organic or local producers, and to encourage others to do the same. It would also be worthwhile to be encouraging to the producers to market them selves more effectivly. In my experience these guys seem to be a bit conservative with their marketing, they will set up a wee shop or a stall at a farmers market but selling on the internet or facebook or joint ventures with other farmers is too far for them. I don't know why more farmers don't organise themselves into selling co-operatives, at least with the Ballylagan place I mentioned in a previous thread he has a bit of an excuse as he only does Organic stuff and so few local farmers are organic. The normal farmers though could make a lot more money for their work if they sold direct to the consumer, wheter that through their farm shop, market stall, on the internet, local veg shops, box deliveries, on the internet or whatever.
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Post by campbeji on Dec 19, 2011 14:51:45 GMT -5
Someone had mentioned earlier in this thread about buying food in bulk, I think this is a good idea but where do you go to buy in bulk.
Is it a case of going to Tescos and waiting for a reduced price and then allowing inflation to make it worthwhile?
Is there a place where a normal person (that couldn't get a wholesalers card) could go to buy 10 cases of baked beans and 15 kilo of rice at a reduced price?
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Post by tphase on Dec 19, 2011 18:29:49 GMT -5
a lot of the "ethnic" shops sell stuff in bulk sizes. not sure how well the prices compare to the supermarkets (especially when they have deals) but if you're buying a lot of food, you can haggle. try doing that with a tesco floor manager .....
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Post by cye on Dec 19, 2011 18:35:40 GMT -5
well if it's quality wholefoods, & if we get enough orders for a collective £500 order, we can set up a buying group with suma wholesale. bulk orders from suma make the prices reasonable. i can put you in touch with a suma buying group who have been buying from suma for years up in the north west - whilst it is probably not practicable to join their group, they would be able to share their views on the benefits of the suma arrangement.
at the price-conscious end of the scale, the good folks at lawrence street workshops have recently started a food co-op. i don't have any first hand experience of it (yet), but i have been told that they do stuff like buy huge bags of rice from the chinese wholesalers and divvy it up. this is a really nice idea too.
we would join anything of this type in belfast. i'm also interested in collective purchases of coal and wood pellet if we can get any interested parties together.
i think i've finally figured out why the reported level of food inflation is so much lower than our own experience. the govt statisticians use volunteer families in their surveys who note down everything they've bought for a two week period, then they use this to compute an average family's food bill. the flaw i think here is that what's been happening in the average family is that prices have risen so much the families are buying more of the budget and lower quality foods, so the figures show the average food bills not rising as much as they would have had the families been buying the same grade of food all along. we however haven't switched to budget brands and are more or less buying the same stuff we've always bought, and this is why we are seeing a much greater increase on food prices than the headline rate of food inflation reported by the ONS/government.
now, which is a truer picture of how things are changing? my view is that the government figures are not comparing like with like from one year to the next, and this is hiding a truly phenomenal rate of food inflation.
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Post by cye on Dec 19, 2011 18:39:53 GMT -5
just spotted tphase's earlier post on ethnic shops. this seems to be just what the lawrence street food co-op are doing. great minds think alike.
tesco shopping is potentially short term gain and long term pain, we need more of the smaller outfits who are amenable to a deal in exchange for good custom, and furthermore don't bind their suppliers to unpleasant contracts. you are correct, there'll be no negotiation with your local tescos!
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Post by cye on Dec 20, 2011 4:21:16 GMT -5
here's a scottish analysis of food price inflation which i found very interesting www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2009/06/25102307/6it seems that whilst the bank of england are reporting the food inflation decrease (rate of price increase falling) due to supermarket BOGOFS and other offers, these offers tend to be on the nastier foods with higher sugar and fat content. so, the govts report the figures as improving, yet people are just buying more rubbish food and, if not rubbish food, certainly less pricey brands? it's also interesting that for those on low incomes who were always buying the discount brands, could do nothing else and therefore nothing cheaper to trade down to, things are not as rosey as the official figures may suggest!
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Post by campbeji on Dec 20, 2011 22:28:34 GMT -5
Cye, If you are thinking of setting up a food co-op then i'd be really interested, both for the price conscious end and also the organic stuff. The chap that owns the Ballylagan place I mentioned earlier buys in food from Suma, he might be willing to share an order or give us good prices on a big order, might be worthwhile if the shipping costs are high. I like the idea of buying large bags of rice from the ethnic stores, we use a lot of rice so that may be a good idea, i'll have to find a few of these places and call into them. I don't know where you could get coul or wood pellet cheap, but you could maybe look into growing some willow, I read somewher that an acre of land could keep you self sufficent in heat. Do you know anyone with some land they don't use, or if you had a spare £60,000 there is 14 acres of land in Newtownabbey If anyone is interested in the Food Co-op idea we should maybe think about organising something or maybe joining the one in Lawrence street.
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Post by tomhill on Dec 21, 2011 5:55:25 GMT -5
I think you have hit the answer, Cye. The inflation figures look so low because of how they are measured. If the sample shopping baskets are those of ordinary people and if those 'ordinary people' are under the same stress the rest of us are under then the contents of those baskets is going to change. They will be looking at cheaper brands and special offers....... One persons crappy measuring system is another governments fig leaf. Tom
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Post by cye on Dec 21, 2011 7:38:35 GMT -5
Jim,
Most excellent. we have a few folks who are also interested in participating in a food co-op. i also know of others who are in suma buying groups. i will investigate the workshops co-op further, or perhaps binhoker (who's in that co-op) can provide further details.
...and we can discuss further over the holidays... in the meantime can you investigate what would be involved (terms) for the joining up with the ballylagan one? would we just be splitting the delivery charges or would your man seek an additional premium?
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Post by cye on Dec 21, 2011 7:40:28 GMT -5
Tom, Do you think it's deliberate that joe public never has this stuff explained to him, or is it just that we accept generally what we are told without questioning?
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Post by campbeji on Dec 21, 2011 12:16:26 GMT -5
Cye,
If we are going to spend any time talking about a food Co-Op it might be a good idea to have a discussion board started just for that, then the info won't get lost in among the general chat here.
I have a bit of info to pass on, but i'll let you all know later when I get the time
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Post by tomhill on Dec 21, 2011 14:20:24 GMT -5
We're breaking up captain! Cye, I reckon that this is the result of an outdated measuring system which happens to produce convienient results. I'll bet in the guidelines (no doubt drawn up just after WW2), it is stated that there will be baskets sampled from upper, middle and working classes or some such arcaic tripe. I don't imagine their sampling system takes account of such modern phenomena as choice or the special offers which are the result of cute marketing. I am sure the sampling system survives from the meat and two veg days when 'the housewife' planned the weeks dinners and families ate more or less the same diet every week. It is difficult to suggest an alternative system. It would seem necessary to include a quality factor but what would that be? Would it be healthy food or the calorific value of the food. In our world we would say that healthy food matters. In Cuba , until recently, it was the number of calories. It depends what you do with your food. If you sit on your ass all day, organic veg and wholewheat pasta might be best for you however if you bust it all day in the fields you might need a different diet. This is a whole new can of worms. Cye did all the graft on this revelation, I'm just turning the heap. Tom
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